### Log session started at Sat Jul 21 00:00:00 2007 ### [00:00:00] that won't be included in that [00:00:27] I think dbaron was leaning towards the Always vs Sometimes rather than Sometimes vs Never [00:00:32] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-C9E935A9.googlewifi.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [00:00:33] Mardak__ [chatzilla@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [00:00:46] <@bz> mconnor: ah, good to know more stuff moved to js [00:00:47] Which makes sense to me: if saving ink is really a big deal, they can use about:config [00:00:48] Mardak__ [chatzilla@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] is now known as Mardak [00:00:58] <@bz> mconnor: and yeah, I'm sad that we keep changing our tboxes and losing data... :( [00:00:59] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [00:01:11] bz: this one had to happen, I think [00:01:21] <@bz> sure [00:01:27] <@bz> I'm not saying we shouldn't do it [00:01:28] bz: I have high hopes for the new perf stuff [00:01:34] <@bz> I'm saying we should try to recover the data [00:01:47] woo, flight delay [00:01:52] <@bz> e.g. by running this box on older builds (pull by date or tag) [00:02:09] beltzner: less time in ORD in the predawn hours! [00:02:11] <@bz> Note that for Z the compiler is the single biggest factor last I checked [00:02:29] <@bz> but then again, we want to track that too, probably [00:02:36] <@bz> so we could even splice in the Z from the older tbox manually [00:02:40] <@bz> we've done that in the past... [00:02:43] mconnor: less time sleeping, if they try to make their flightplan :( [00:02:51] <@bz> unlike perf numbers, it's actually meaningful [00:03:08] <@bz> anyway [00:03:09] beltzner: mmm, possible [00:03:20] <@bz> my laptop claims 4 mins battery life left [00:03:22] <@bz> which I read as a sign [00:03:25] <@bz> g'night! [00:03:27] bz: its a good read! [00:03:28] g'night! [00:03:29] night! [00:03:36] bz [bzbarsky@moz-307D468E.client.dsl.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Leaving [00:03:38] fantasai: done [00:03:49] beltzner always gets nervous following up mpt comments [00:04:46] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [00:04:57] aww~ [00:05:09] dude scares me [00:05:10] beltzner, mconnor: thanks very much! [00:05:14] beltzner: really? why? [00:05:29] someday, I would like somebody clean up of js files. [00:05:30] dunno, I always get the feeling he'd hunt me down and gut me [00:05:39] Jonathan: start today! [00:05:49] beltzner: he wouldn't [00:05:59] <@stuart> mm [00:06:18] beltzner: he's very mild in person, at least in my experience [00:06:28] dwitte [dwitte@moz-DA51E25D.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] is now known as dwitte_oot [00:06:29] the mail parts from all.js needs to be ifdef or move to thunderbird.js [00:06:31] I am probably making mountains of molehills [00:06:45] beltzner: he is a bit harsh when commenting on stuff though [00:07:02] beltzner: but he's definitely not physically violent :) [00:07:12] again, good to know [00:07:12] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [00:07:20] is he still @ ubunto? [00:07:22] tu [00:07:28] yes [00:07:39] working mainly on Launchpad [00:08:11] and trying to get more into design work on that and Ubuntu, rather than fixing CSS/XHTML bugs [00:10:20] dria [dria@A06D3B2B.643E6F40.BE18F0C.IP] has quit IRC: Quit: Leaving [00:11:24] ah [00:13:16] beltzner goes off to board his flight [00:13:38] fantasai waves [00:13:42] later [00:14:00] stephend|movie should meet beltzner next time [00:14:05] you saw me, just never met me [00:14:08] have a good trip beltzner [00:15:03] red-eye, eh? [00:15:04] sucks. [00:17:07] stephend|movie: what movie? [00:17:22] people moving from EST to PST have it easy [00:17:25] Red Lights [00:17:32] it would be way harder to live in PST and travel to EST [00:17:36] and no, it's not porn! [00:18:22] :-) [00:18:28] 1923? [00:18:37] I was thinking of watching Alphaville instead [00:18:46] 2004, french, I think [00:19:06] oh, i couldn't tell [00:19:11] (looking at imdb [00:19:14] ah [00:19:23] it's a pretty tense movie [00:22:00] brendan [brendaneic@moz-37758455.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [00:25:27] can VMs not do windows media? [00:25:39] they play sound but not video [00:25:49] is that because it can't do the HAL? [00:25:56] (on windows) [00:27:07] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [00:27:25] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [00:27:43] doublec [doublec@moz-250AF92.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit IRC: Quit: doublec [00:32:50] Lucy__ [Lucy@moz-D480481C.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [00:34:00] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [00:34:28] stephend|movie [stephend@moz-170AB7B.mountainview.mozilla.com] has quit IRC: Quit: stephend|movie [00:34:30] Lucy_ [Lucy@moz-D480481C.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [00:35:11] fantasai [fantasai@moz-989A079D.info] has left #developers: sleeptime [00:39:35] stephend|movie [stephend@moz-170AB7B.mountainview.mozilla.com] has joined #developers [00:40:47] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [00:53:11] Lucy_ [Lucy@moz-D480481C.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [00:54:32] Lucy__ [Lucy@moz-D480481C.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [00:59:01] ray [ray@moz-BAF9A080.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [00:59:02] New build added to MozillaRelease: Linux staging-prometheus-vm Depend Fx-Release (status: Success). [00:59:06] Build 'WINNT 5.0 patrocles Depend Tb-Release' has dropped from the 'MozillaRelease' tinderbox. [00:59:12] Build 'Linux crazyhorse Depend Tb-Release' has dropped from the 'MozillaRelease' tinderbox. [00:59:18] Vampire- [aleks@3C88C065.1091C8D7.E16F0CF5.IP] has joined #developers [00:59:20] Build 'MacOSX Darwin 8.7.0 bm-xserve02 Depend Tb-Release' has dropped from the 'MozillaRelease' tinderbox. [01:05:47] aja [chatzilla@48A303E4.53B749AA.7880DB15.IP] has joined #developers [01:09:09] anyone already aware of prob with listbox.xml in recent builds? bz-sleep? [01:09:14] Error: Component returned failure code: 0x80004002 (NS_NOINTERFACE) [nsISupports.QueryInterface] [01:09:15] Source file: chrome://global/content/bindings/listbox.xml [01:09:35] anybody around? the compiler is crapping on this http://pastebin.com/d2952de89 [01:09:41] brendan [brendaneic@moz-37758455.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: brendan [01:10:13] wow [01:10:19] that needs a sewage plant :) [01:11:20] I have no idea, I didn't even write this stuff [01:11:38] Linux? [01:11:54] yes [01:12:03] where's the source? [01:12:16] (note that I really suck at C++, and I'm not much better at fixing build bustages) [01:12:28] http://svn.csquad.org/dbuzilla/trunk/src/ [01:12:57] note that I'm not using their makefiles because they're useless [01:13:10] yeah, #including anything that #includes nsString.h is... bad [01:13:48] at least, assuming you're not magically part of libxul [01:13:55] doesn't it have ifdef guards? [01:14:16] Mook: latest revision was about one year ago (and I assume the code worked at that point), api changes so fast? :( [01:14:34] shackan: are you building off 1.8 branch or trunk? [01:14:41] 1.8 [01:14:54] 1.8 API's aren't supposed to change [01:14:57] at all [01:15:08] xulrunner 1.8.1 exactly [01:15:09] no, nsStringAPI prevents you from using it if you have internal API, but nsString doesn't seem to try [01:15:23] oh... [01:15:36] I bet it used to work a year ago because it wasn't being built against xulrunner? :) [01:15:49] not a lot of things are built against XR, even now [01:16:03] Mook: it was http://svn.csquad.org/dbuzilla/trunk/README [01:16:07] well, the important thing here being libxul [01:16:43] which as far as I am concerned means "you're not part of libxul? you want to use internal strings? you're screwed." [01:17:02] stephend|movie [stephend@moz-170AB7B.mountainview.mozilla.com] has quit IRC: Quit: stephend|movie [01:17:10] oh, hmm, it /did/ build w/ XR? [01:17:27] those are their instructions, therefore I assume yes [01:17:29] Mook notes it's 1801 not 181, but has no idea if that matters [01:18:03] (I'm using the stock xulrunner and libxul-dev from ubuntu, if that matters) [01:18:38] what's your Makefile look like? You said that was different [01:18:52] yup, lemme paste it [01:19:05] Lucy_ [Lucy@moz-D480481C.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [01:19:24] http://pastebin.com/d2ebbe637 [01:19:36] nothing fancy, I think [01:19:50] elif [chatzilla@moz-EB9175AF.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.5/2007071317] [01:19:58] shackan, what does that do that our dbus code doesn't? [01:20:19] sayrer: is your dbus code scriptable? [01:20:21] brendan [brendaneic@moz-37758455.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [01:20:26] "our" dbus code? [01:20:28] oy [01:20:32] http://svn.csquad.org/dbuzilla/trunk/src/nsDBusMethod.h [01:20:35] I thought we had dbus stuff? [01:20:43] sayrer: I have no idea [01:20:48] yeah, that's gonna be fun [01:20:49] <@stuart> mmm [01:21:03] #undef nsACString / #define MOZILLA_INTERNAL_API 1 / #include "nsCOMArray.h" / #undef MOZILLA_INTERNAL_API [01:21:13] Mook - oh, lovely [01:21:20] sayrer: I came here about three months ago (been busy until now) and I was told the only dbus code in firefox was by roc, it was only used for network manager support in suse and _wasn't scriptable_ [01:21:23] toolkit/system/dbus [01:21:34] shackan: totally possible [01:22:07] still looks that way, in fact - at least, no idl there [01:22:20] sigh [01:22:46] Mook: that code looks really WTF [01:23:04] shackan: I have no ideas, but as I said, I'm not much of a build bustage guy [01:23:14] WeirdAl: np :) [01:24:27] Mook: may those #undefs have something to do with my horror ? [01:24:46] shackan: I believe so [01:25:06] I'd be differently hacky and just #define nsAString_h___ [01:25:23] (.... while noting, of course, the fact that that is a hack) [01:26:47] nsCOMArray is not public api or something ? [01:27:05] it wasn't in 1.8 branch [01:27:16] (it's in glue on trunk, so it'd be... safer to use) [01:27:23] shackan groans [01:31:06] WeirdAl [chatzilla@moz-E0ACC29C.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.5/2007071317] [01:31:52] polk__ [polk@moz-EE5CBED3.static.amnet.net.au] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [01:31:55] Mook: YPPIEEE!! [01:32:09] warning: that is /still/ evil [01:32:16] I *know* [01:32:28] on to the next error now.. src/nsDBusXMLParser.cpp:50:26: error: nsIDOMParser.h: No such file or directory [01:32:29] as long as that's clear, okay :) [01:32:58] http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/content/base/public/nsIDOMParser.idl - oh, I bet it's because you're using the xulrunner-dev package [01:33:14] instead of building your own xulrunner - so internal unfrozen things are probably not around [01:33:53] running xpidl -m header on the idl should get around that, but if it ends up wanting to linking against things you're stuck [01:38:54] smaugZzz [chatzilla@moz-DDD2A5AD.pp.htv.fi] is now known as smaug [01:38:59] Mook: WHOHOOO! [01:39:15] does it actually /work/? :) [01:39:32] not so fast! :( [01:39:45] will it float? [01:39:49] src/nsDBusMethod.cpp:167: error: base operand of ‘->’ has non-pointer type ‘nsCOMArray’ [01:39:55] argh [01:41:38] luser [luser@moz-CEF4DB79.c3-0.drf-ubr1.atw-drf.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [01:42:41] smaug [chatzilla@moz-DDD2A5AD.pp.htv.fi] has quit IRC: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 3.0a7pre/2007071521] [01:42:49] myk_ [chatzilla@moz-7B3C332.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #developers [01:42:59] myk_ [chatzilla@moz-7B3C332.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] is now known as myk [01:42:59] myk [chatzilla@moz-7B3C332.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.77-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9a2pre/2007010808] [01:44:20] can anyone confirm https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389059 with a trunk hourly after approx 1800 ? breaks session restore at minimum [01:44:42] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [01:45:46] Mook: thanks a lot, I just patched the last errors out [01:46:01] heh, yay [01:46:04] Mook: no idea whether it will work tough :\ [01:46:17] and after that, you get to try to port it to trunk :) [01:47:10] I doubt the maintainer still cares [01:47:31] anyway, sure :) [01:49:45] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [01:53:03] sdwilsh [sdwilsh@moz-F6020081.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] is now known as sdwilsh|sleep [01:55:18] Error: [Exception... "'Component does not have requested interface' when calling method: [nsIInterfaceRequestor::getInterface]" nsresult: "0x80004002 (NS_NOINTERFACE)" location: "" data: no]? [02:07:32] Tks Jonathan... build id? [02:08:24] joduinn [joduinn@moz-512827F9.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #developers [02:09:30] mw22_ [chatzilla@moz-7142FB28.dsl.speedlinq.nl] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [02:13:41] brendan [brendaneic@moz-37758455.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: brendan [02:13:55] philor [ringnalda@moz-671F906C.eug.or.uspops.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [02:21:43] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Verlassend [02:22:52] mw22_ [chatzilla@moz-7142FB28.dsl.speedlinq.nl] has joined #developers [02:22:54] mw22_ [chatzilla@moz-7142FB28.dsl.speedlinq.nl] is now known as mw22 [02:29:36] einpoklum [some@moz-DBBEDEB9.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #developers [02:31:06] when I create a new thread, am I responsible for joining it? Or can I have the 'thread manager', about whose function I'm not entirely clear, join it? [02:32:13] or should I make it 'PR_UNJOINABLE_THREAD [02:32:21] ' instead? [02:34:11] also, I'm looking at this: http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/js/src/xpconnect/tests/js/old/threads.js [02:34:52] and I'm asking myself? where do these parameters for new Thread() come from? I don't recall seeing the constructor described anywhere... [02:39:40] joduinn [joduinn@moz-512827F9.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit IRC: Quit: joduinn [02:42:18] joduinn [joduinn@moz-E31CD2CB.mozilla.org] has joined #developers [02:45:31] NeilZZZ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [02:46:31] Neil_ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #developers [02:46:42] Neil_ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] is now known as NeilZZZ [02:51:01] Steffen [chatzilla@moz-228E5691.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #developers [02:55:58] WeirdAl [chatzilla@moz-E0ACC29C.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [03:05:23] Mook [mook@moz-1B252671.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit IRC: Quit: sleep [03:07:01] myk [chatzilla@moz-7B3C332.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #developers [03:13:00] WeirdAl [chatzilla@moz-E0ACC29C.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [03:13:22] aja [chatzilla@48A303E4.53B749AA.7880DB15.IP] has quit IRC: Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.77-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.4/2006060814] [03:13:45] stephend|movie [stephend@moz-94EBE039.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [03:20:06] Tomcat-afk_ [MBTC@moz-F2736BBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #developers [03:22:18] Tomcat-afk [MBTC@moz-1E5E9DA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [03:22:39] Tomcat-afk_ [MBTC@moz-F2736BBA.dip.t-dialin.net] is now known as Tomcat-afk [03:23:36] sspitzerMsgMe [sspitzer@moz-3394BC05.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [03:26:21] Standard8 [mark@moz-BD7E5647.demon.co.uk] has joined #developers [03:29:29] polk__ [polk@moz-EE5CBED3.static.amnet.net.au] has joined #developers [03:32:18] anyone around? I have a thread question [03:32:58] graydon [graydon@moz-CB07E776.vc.shawcable.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [03:35:05] ibukanov [igor@moz-623C85E.nextgentel.com] has quit IRC: Quit: Leaving. [03:38:24] jez [user@moz-2ADFC89C.brhm.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #developers [03:39:01] those are hard :-) [03:39:11] unbelievable [03:39:23] me and my brother both had an entire medium papa john's pizza last night [03:39:26] and he STILL ate the remaining piece of mine, not this morning, but last night [03:39:30] i was gonna have that for breakfast, the greedy little bastard [03:39:30] [03:39:46] "me had" is poor grammar. [03:40:04] yeah, but im not taking an English test [03:41:11] well, I have this threading code which works in tb 2.0.0.5, but not in sm trunk [03:41:16] and I think the API might have changed [03:41:56] the problem is, that I do this: [03:41:58] var thread = new Thread(searchForDupesRunnable, 0, nsIThread.PRIORITY_NORMAL,nsIThread.SCOPE_GLOBAL,nsIThread.STATE_JOINABLE); [03:42:18] and sm says "Thread is not a constructor" [03:42:37] oh [03:42:43] there have been string changes [03:43:08] but not sure if that affects this specifically [03:43:34] (I've been basically copy-pasting from js/src/xpconnect/tests/js/old/threads.js ) [03:44:46] er [03:45:02] is the /old dir guaranteed to be supported? [03:45:08] I didn't think it was [03:45:10] stephend|movie [stephend@moz-94EBE039.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] is now known as stephend [03:45:35] or maybe I'm thinking of XPCOM's "obsolete" dir [03:46:25] well, probably it's just name changes like you said, I'm sure XPCOM threading hasn't been scrapped... [03:47:08] doesn't seem like something as intuitive as "Thread" would change [03:48:00] um, const Thread = new Components.Constructor("@mozilla.org/thread;1", "nsIThread", "init"); [03:48:10] also copied from the same test .js [03:49:25] ah [03:49:26] http://wiki.mozilla.org/XPCOM:nsIThreadManager [03:49:35] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=326273 [03:49:50] myk [chatzilla@moz-7B3C332.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.77-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9a2pre/2007010808] [03:49:58] stephend waves to Steffen [03:50:17] Steffen waves back [03:50:29] heh [03:50:35] sorry about that bug... [03:50:44] 2.0.0.5 was hectic [03:50:55] np [03:51:37] and now you're verifying bugs which have been fixed 3 years ago? [03:51:42] so how would I go about creating a new thread? and where's the listing for the lag bits? [03:52:04] s/lag/flag/ [03:52:08] Steffen: yeah, just for fun [03:52:16] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [03:52:40] not just those, though [03:53:57] http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/xpcom/threads/nsIThreadManager.idl#51 [03:54:40] but that doesn't take a runnable... [03:54:47] and what are the creation flag bits? [03:55:15] 54 * @param creationFlags [03:55:16] 55 * Reserved for future use. Pass 0. [03:55:51] I don't know this stuff, just trying to read the idl [03:56:11] which is always a good idea [03:56:16] slrn [03:56:33] I've done the same and I still can't figure it out, especially the part about where the runnable comes into the picture [03:57:02] plus, if it's reserved for future use, how do I choose between PR_STATE_JOINABLE and PR_STATE_UNJOINABLE ? [03:57:25] now this is curious. all of a sudden, my release builds are not finishing, because they come to this error (debug builds are still working fine though): [03:57:25] make[5]: *** No rule to make target `nspr4.pdb', needed by `export'. Stop. [03:57:31] any idea why this might be? [03:57:43] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [03:58:39] that doesn't even exist: http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/search?string=PR_STATE_JOINABLE [03:59:52] oh, sorry, I meant PR_JOINABLE_THREAD [04:00:07] and all the other params in here: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/PR_CreateThread [04:04:18] bc [bclary@moz-95E1E5F0.direcpc.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [04:06:49] that's about /nsprpub/pr/src/threads; I doubt that's the same as /xpcom/threads/ [04:07:02] bc [bclary@moz-95E1E5F0.direcpc.com] has joined #developers [04:07:12] well, the js threads test had STATE_JOINABLE as a parameter [04:07:38] although since I don't see a join method anywhere, then probably the thread manager does all the joining [04:08:08] anyway, I still don't know how to tell the thread what to run, or how to use a thread observer to tell when the thread has terminated [04:09:37] aw1_ [Andreas_Wu@moz-5245B08D.infopact.nl] has joined #developers [04:09:40] aw1_ [Andreas_Wu@moz-5245B08D.infopact.nl] is now known as aw1 [04:12:43] Ya know what Mozilla Corp needs to do? Hire a printing guru. [04:12:52] One person who is just dedicated to getting print working well [04:12:57] Firefox's printing sucks. [04:13:06] where can i make this suggestion? [04:13:50] #diaf, on freenode [04:14:43] jez: they need to hire a whole bunch of printing gurus ;) [04:14:55] seriously, though, it's getting embarrassing [04:15:07] sayrer [chatzilla@moz-36071B30.cable.mindspring.com] has left #developers [04:15:20] if you do a route on google maps, it has some code in just to hide the route when printing [04:15:22] stephend [stephend@moz-94EBE039.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [04:15:30] because if it showed the route line, it would screw up the map [04:15:38] as transparent PNGs are not printed transparently [04:15:44] stephend [stephend@moz-94EBE039.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [04:15:53] surprised google havent lobbied them to do something about it, really [04:16:30] I especially like it when trunk builds allocate hundreds of megabytes when printing [04:17:01] stephend [stephend@moz-94EBE039.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [04:18:32] i dont get it [04:18:45] mozilla corp has millions of $, cant they just hire one lousy print programmer? [04:18:54] how is this not important? [04:20:36] If I had a nickle for every time I wanted to say "mozilla corp has millions of dollars, can't they just buy X"... [04:21:04] I'd have, like, 6 nickles [04:21:55] so? [04:22:19] damn, i wish i'd asked it on Air Mozilla [04:22:23] einpoklum: http://wiki.mozilla.org/XPCOM:nsIThreadManager#From_JS [04:23:00] JasnaPaka [Pavel@moz-9D55794A.karneval.cz] has joined #developers [04:23:16] Steffen: I don't see how that's relevant [04:23:53] oh, you mean events have a run() method like runnables used to, and you dispatch events with run's to your new thread? [04:23:59] mvl [mvl@moz-FC59C0AE.xs4all.nl] has joined #developers [04:38:57] anyone who could shed some light on this error would be welcome [04:39:01] /usr/include/microb-engine/xpcom/nsIThread.h:44: error: `PRThread' has not been declared [04:39:01] /usr/include/microb-engine/xpcom/nsIThread.h:44: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of `aPRThread' with no type [04:39:19] dwitte_oot [dwitte@moz-DA51E25D.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] is now known as dwitte [04:39:40] microb-engine is gecko, adapted for embedded devices [04:39:49] Yoric [yoric@moz-1513168E.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #developers [04:40:15] the same code compiles outside of the crosscompiler, using xulrunner [04:43:34] JibberJim [jim@moz-299A3F6B.lid.theveniceproject.com] has joined #developers [04:44:57] tH_ [Rob@87.102.14.144] has joined #developers [04:45:15] tH_ [Rob@87.102.14.144] is now known as tH [04:46:50] dao [dao@moz-3130643E.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #developers [04:46:54] I've got a xul:iframe - how do I find out the status of the document that's loaded into it - I want to know if it's a 404 - I can't see anything on nsIDocShell ? [04:49:15] Mano [chatzilla@moz-6F689482.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [04:52:18] Aleksej [Aleksej2@70380063.C4C9DFBB.9E013640.IP] has quit IRC: Quit: Help testing Firefox, Thunderbird et al! See http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community [04:52:50] Aleksej [Aleksej2@70380063.C4C9DFBB.9E013640.IP] has joined #developers [05:06:57] JibberJim: attach a webprogresslistener to your iframe [05:07:02] Yoric [yoric@moz-1513168E.fbx.proxad.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Ex-Chat [05:07:21] (you have to do this before tle load though) [05:09:17] ah, excellent, thanks aw1 [05:09:26] np [05:10:22] JibberJim: currentURI gives you the address of the 404 page, that doesn't help you, but document.baseURI gives you about:neterror?e=dnsNotFound [05:10:57] won't that only happen if there's friendly HTTP errors enabled? [05:11:58] Steffen: aren't you thinking about server not found here? [05:12:25] 404 is page not found, but an HTTP connection was established [05:12:40] right, sorry [05:13:40] gnubeard [gnubeard@moz-6C16074A.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: gnubeard [05:14:44] kinetik_ [chatzilla@moz-23E0A431.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #developers [05:19:04] Camino: 'MacOSX Darwin 8.10.0 boxset Depend CmTrunk' has changed state from Success to Test Failed. [05:26:03] anyone have Bugzilla privileges? 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[07:05:58] dao [dao@moz-3130643E.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [07:14:47] doublec [doublec@moz-250AF92.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit IRC: Quit: doublec [07:18:35] Enn [enn@moz-82A121CB.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #developers [07:23:33] wgianopoulos [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #developers [07:32:30] Mano [chatzilla@moz-C605F857.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #developers [07:40:13] CTho|zzz [chris@moz-7D9F8B32.austin.res.rr.com] is now known as CTho [07:52:29] roc [roc@moz-886AA970.dsl.telstraclear.net] has quit IRC: Quit: roc [08:05:31] stransky [stransky@97B9D5D0.AB870A4F.79A397EA.IP] has joined #developers [08:06:18] tomg [chatzilla@moz-286D0C5D.access.telenet.be] has joined #developers [08:07:57] stransky [stransky@97B9D5D0.AB870A4F.79A397EA.IP] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [08:09:03] robarnold|away [Grendel@moz-3F5EB3EF.thearnolds.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [08:12:12] Firefox: 'Linux fxdbug-linux-tbox Depend' has changed state from Success to Test Failed. [08:12:38] Where is NS_OK's value defined? [08:16:30] jez: http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/xpcom/base/nsError.h#159 could be the right place [08:16:49] ah cheers [08:16:51] as i expected [08:17:37] that file doesnt even *appear* in MXR's identifier search for NS_OK [08:17:38] :-\ [08:20:23] Mano [chatzilla@moz-C605F857.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [08:23:56] jminta [chatzilla@moz-67193C20.client.dsl.net] is now known as jminta|potter [08:24:14] Firefox: 'Linux fxdbug-linux-tbox Depend' has changed state from Test Failed to Success. [08:24:24] jez: restricting to \.h$ helps sometimes [08:24:39] Aqualon: not when the file doesnt even show up in the search [08:25:13] hi. How can i get to the nsiHttpChannel associated with a xul:iframe request? i just need the http status code though. [08:25:19] CTho [chris@moz-7D9F8B32.austin.res.rr.com] is now known as CTho|away [08:25:22] jez: it does for http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/ident?i=NS_OK&tree=seamonkey&filter=%5C.h%24 after all those defined as variable in results [08:25:53] SoC_Jusherot [SoC_Jusher@moz-E3FB353E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #developers [08:27:12] ah [08:27:19] the preprocessor macro should be at the top [08:27:26] it's rare, so more likely to be the correct one [08:27:29] kiko [kiko@13DFBF42.5FC60D86.A271D678.IP] has joined #developers [08:31:37] SoC_Jusherot [SoC_Jusher@moz-E3FB353E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit IRC: Quit: SoC_Jusherot [08:41:19] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [08:41:49] polk__ [polk@moz-EE5CBED3.static.amnet.net.au] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [08:47:39] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [08:49:11] mvl [mvl@moz-FC59C0AE.xs4all.nl] has quit IRC: Quit: mvl [08:55:10] doronHome 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Where is the code, for Thunderbird, that causes messages to be sorted by Date when they're grouped? [11:47:21] are they acutally sorted by date or by arrival in the mbox (i.e. unsorted)? [11:47:33] i thought it was by date, but either way [11:47:35] where is the code [11:49:24] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has quit IRC: Z:lined (Flood from unknown connection) [11:49:56] jez: if you are asking because you want a different sort, you can do that without changing the code [11:50:08] how? [11:50:55] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [11:51:29] enable the thread, then from the menu view -> sort by -> whateveryouwant [11:52:37] that's threads [11:53:20] sp3000 wonders what groups are good for anyhow [11:54:32] but when you group stuff it sorts by Date [11:54:36] so where's the code that does that? [11:54:41] well, generating bugs about what you can't do with tehm of course, but besides that ;) [11:56:10] Wevah [Wevah@6CD74840.C4DFA809.F9917295.IP] has joined #developers [11:56:24] Wevah [Wevah@6CD74840.C4DFA809.F9917295.IP] has quit IRC: Client exited [11:56:34] Sander [me@moz-B871F4D3.direct-adsl.nl] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [11:59:29] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #developers [12:00:34] Sander [me@moz-B871F4D3.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #developers [12:01:51] jez: i guess the code is deeply buried in http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/mailnews/base/src/nsMsgDBView.cpp [12:02:23] s/(deeply) (buried)/\2 \1/ [12:03:33] kdc [chatzilla@moz-2ACC6B38.pk.shawcable.net] has joined #developers [12:05:42] SoC_Jusherot [SoC_Jusher@moz-E3FB353E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #developers [12:07:30] SoC_Jusherot [SoC_Jusher@moz-E3FB353E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit IRC: Quit: SoC_Jusherot [12:09:39] i don't see anything in there that would order the messages [12:09:48] just stuff for getting message/header information [12:10:09] brendan_ [brendaneic@moz-37758455.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: brendan_ [12:12:15] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Verlassend [12:13:08] jez: look closer. there are a whole lot of occurrences of the word 'sort' in that file [12:13:40] yes... but not date [12:13:47] well, ive looked at the date occurances [12:18:57] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [12:20:27] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has quit IRC: Z:lined (Flood from unknown connection) [12:22:52] !seen weirdal [12:22:54] weirdal was last seen 10 hours, 59 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying 'shackan: I have no ideas, but as I said, I'm not much of a build bustage guy' in #developers. [12:25:34] jez: look at bug 57898 and 308737 [12:25:45] the last one has a patch that shows where things happen [12:25:54] I'm not sure if that applies to grouped sort too [12:27:37] (thanks to cvs log for finding that bug) [12:28:38] agh! [12:29:06] kdc [chatzilla@moz-2ACC6B38.pk.shawcable.net] has quit IRC: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-2007062423 [Firefox 3.0a7pre/2007071905] [12:29:41] i spent ages modifying nsMsgThread.cpp [12:29:51] i dont know why that file uses GetDate 3 times then [12:30:29] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #developers [12:33:26] Simon [Simon@moz-CB07BC25.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #developers [12:33:59] need to ask mconnor or bienvenu, i guess [12:34:16] there seems to be an enormous amount of redundant/duplicated code [12:34:29] especially between mail and mailnews [12:36:06] you mean mscott, maybe [12:36:13] yeah [12:36:16] I'm not a mailnews dev, never have been [12:36:27] one of the two, heh [12:37:18] jez: so didn't that last bug answer your question, are did you switch to some other subject? [12:37:43] mvl: im recompiling now to check that it did, but now im wondering what the code in nsMsgThread.cpp does [12:37:53] because it uses GetDate and looks like it's ordering stuff by date [12:38:13] likely doing stuff when in threaded mode [12:39:04] i guess i'll leave my modifications there, dont seem to be breaking anything [12:40:04] Jonathan [chatzilla@moz-B1643CEE.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [12:41:33] whimboo [whimboo@moz-88A97251.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit IRC: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.5pre/2007071303] [12:44:57] ibukanov [igor@moz-623C85E.nextgentel.com] has joined #developers [12:49:07] fantasai [fantasai@moz-989A079D.info] has joined #developers [12:49:48] yup that code has indeed fixed the ordering [12:51:11] chrisk [none@moz-5C4A133D.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #developers [12:52:26] JibberJim [jim@moz-68D5ADB7.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #developers [12:58:20] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [13:00:14] NeilAway [neil@moz-8A2C3F43.adsl.newnet.co.uk] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [13:01:53] WeirdAl [chatzilla@8002B02F.7DB13D05.396B22AD.IP] has joined #developers [13:02:37] NeilAway [neil@moz-8A2C3F43.adsl.newnet.co.uk] has joined #developers [13:02:42] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has quit IRC: Z:lined (Flood from unknown connection) [13:03:15] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [13:10:34] sayrer [chatzilla@moz-36071B30.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #developers [13:10:44] I need to build on Camino to test some changes, but I don't have a mac. What should I do? [13:10:51] einpoklum [some@moz-DBBEDEB9.cablep.bezeqint.net] has left #developers [13:10:57] Tomcat [MBTC@moz-F2736BBA.dip.t-dialin.net] is now known as Tomcat|afk [13:11:24] buy a mac. ;-) [13:11:33] sayrer [chatzilla@moz-36071B30.cable.mindspring.com] has left #developers [13:11:41] fantasai, you could always cc some of the camino folks on the bug [13:11:59] did that [13:12:07] ping them on irc as well? [13:12:20] k [13:12:52] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #developers [13:13:59] braden [braden@moz-C3AD38D5.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit IRC: Client exited [13:17:56] dietrich [dietrich@moz-3E81082E.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: dietrich [13:18:14] fantasai [fantasai@moz-989A079D.info] has left #developers: laters [13:21:05] Neil_ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #developers [13:21:26] NeilZZZ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [13:21:36] Neil_ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] is now known as NeilZZZ [13:22:56] Mook [mook@moz-5D195697.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [13:23:14] ray [ray@moz-BAF9A080.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #developers [13:23:28] Standard8 [mark@moz-BD7E5647.demon.co.uk] is now known as Standard8Away [13:24:42] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has quit IRC: Z:lined (Flood from unknown connection) [13:26:44] does NPN_SetException just cause the exception message to show up in the error log? [13:29:43] I'd hope that the main effect is that it throws an exception that JS can catch [13:29:54] so it doesn't necessarily show up in any logs [13:30:38] nod [13:31:38] graydon [graydon@moz-CB07E776.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #developers [13:32:25] dietrich [dietrich@moz-3E81082E.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #developers [13:34:52] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #developers [13:35:38] Archaeopteryx [itsme@7F635911.5B5E9DA5.2AEEFF95.IP] has joined #developers [13:39:03] sdwilsh [sdwilsh@moz-F6020081.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] is now known as sdwilsh|away [13:41:06] dchen [dchen@moz-45EB5554.mozilla.org] is now known as dchen|ALCATRAZ [13:43:10] Mook [mook@moz-5D195697.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #developers [13:43:42] ray [ray@moz-BAF9A080.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit IRC: Quit: ray [13:45:06] WeirdAl [chatzilla@8002B02F.7DB13D05.396B22AD.IP] has quit IRC: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502] [13:49:57] Aleksej [Aleksej2@70380063.C4C9DFBB.9E013640.IP] has quit IRC: Quit: Help testing Firefox, Thunderbird et al! See http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mozilla_QA_Community [13:50:12] Aleksej [Aleksej2@70380063.C4C9DFBB.9E013640.IP] has joined #developers [13:51:13] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has quit IRC: Z:lined (Flood from unknown connection) [13:54:04] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [13:56:06] ajschult [andrew@moz-3BC8F965.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit IRC: Input/output error [13:56:44] robarnold [Miranda@moz-3F5EB3EF.thearnolds.net] has joined #developers [14:01:16] doronHome [doron@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #developers [14:02:58] ajschult [andrew@moz-3BC8F965.bflony.east.verizon.net] has joined #developers [14:05:44] asac [asac@moz-3B50265E.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [14:06:22] Archaeopteryx [itsme@7F635911.5B5E9DA5.2AEEFF95.IP] has quit IRC: Quit: Archaeopteryx [14:08:36] asac [asac@moz-AC37658D.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #developers [14:30:14] dwitte_z [dwitte@moz-DA51E25D.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] is now known as dwitte [14:30:59] Jonathan [chatzilla@moz-B1643CEE.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #developers [14:33:15] ray [ray@moz-60275AD7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #developers [14:36:10] wgianopoulos [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #developers [14:37:21] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-C15DDDED.googlewifi.com] has joined #developers [14:37:52] robarnold [Miranda@moz-3F5EB3EF.thearnolds.net] is now known as robarnold|lunch [14:47:57] Mardak [chatzilla@moz-C15DDDED.googlewifi.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [14:53:33] braden [braden@moz-C3AD38D5.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #developers [14:58:18] abwillis [abwillis@moz-66DA7862.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #developers [14:59:51] is Christophe Nowicki in here by any chance ? [15:02:15] robarnold|lunch [Miranda@moz-3F5EB3EF.thearnolds.net] is now known as robarnold [15:04:08] Enn [enn@moz-F84623BD.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [15:05:50] toshok [toshok@moz-EEF70F8C.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/ [15:05:55] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [15:09:44] schepers [schepers@moz-4A228272.newsouth.net] has joined #developers [15:10:28] ajschult [andrew@moz-3BC8F965.bflony.east.verizon.net] has quit IRC: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [SeaMonkey 2.0a1pre/2007072109] [15:11:20] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [15:11:38] daim [David_Mart@moz-EF3D4F79.fbx.proxad.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.75-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.11/0000000000] [15:18:41] jminta|potter [chatzilla@moz-67193C20.client.dsl.net] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [15:20:16] jminta|potter [chatzilla@moz-67193C20.client.dsl.net] has joined #developers [15:26:45] karl [karl@moz-B9B9ED10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #developers [15:28:29] stefanh [stefanh@moz-C0717DF0.static.s-h.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #developers [15:39:19] Littlemutt [chatzilla@moz-C5944123.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #developers [15:39:33] Littlemutt [chatzilla@moz-C5944123.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] is now known as Littlemutt_afk [15:39:54] wolfiR [wolfiR@moz-C04ED414.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit IRC: Quit: Leaving [15:40:47] wow [15:41:13] i do NOT like the greying of the protocol/path part of the URL in the latest nightly [15:41:17] is that to stay?? [15:41:43] from what i understand, yes, but maybe with tweaks to colours [15:42:37] I like the idea, but not the implementation [15:42:48] instead of greying out part of the url, it should bold the host [15:43:25] which, unfortunately, would lead to o ther problems [15:43:32] why exactly do you like the idea? [15:43:50] gawd, they leave the shitty theme in and make it even worse [15:43:52] sigh [15:44:14] jez: because of the way it will highlight the 'evil.com in something like this: http://www.paypal.com.evil.com/whatever/ [15:44:29] it will highlight www.paypal.com.evil.com [15:44:43] no, it will only highlight evil.com [15:45:05] right now it highlights the whole hostname, but soon it will only highlight evil.com [15:45:14] there better be a pref to restore it to before [15:45:24] that's going straight in to me 'un-fuckify firefox' extension [15:45:26] Jesse: they had to back out the part that uses the etld service, right? [15:45:31] jez: why? [15:45:41] db48x: yeah, the eTLD service was too leaky [15:45:44] because it's irritating and distracting [15:45:50] a) i cant read the path properly [15:45:50] faaborg [faaborg@moz-8ED18645.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #developers [15:45:55] b) the bold/greying is annoying [15:46:24] dolske [dolske@moz-F8EC3862.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: dolske [15:46:26] what if it underlined the host instead? [15:46:31] the path is perfectly legible here [15:46:38] not here, it's light grey [15:46:40] db48x: underlining makes text harder to read :( [15:46:50] it shouldn't [15:46:55] not with good font choice [15:47:02] why do you need to do it? [15:47:10] jez: how about tweaking the grey instead of turning it off? [15:47:13] THe real answer is that if i really wanted thsi i would run spoofstick and have the real domain display in a completely different location and not f*** up the url in the urlbar to do this [15:47:32] jez: would you prefer the path to be normal text, with the host bold? [15:47:36] Jesse: im just asking why you'd want to do it [15:47:39] jez, play around with LocationBar² extension and submit a setup you like to google groups for discussion? [15:47:48] jez: it's to try and help prevent phishing [15:47:49] jez: because it's our best hope against phishing? [15:47:55] db48x: bold is bad [15:48:01] aw1: why do you say that? [15:48:16] paypal.com vs. paypai.com [15:48:32] in bold: l ~= i [15:48:34] you think a user is gonna look at the urlbar? [15:48:38] making that bold wouldn't hurt the i [15:48:40] that would otherwise be caught in by phishing? [15:48:44] unless you have a terrible font [15:48:58] jez: users today don't know which part of the url is important [15:48:59] someone hasnt thought this through [15:49:05] - joe sixpack clicks phishing link [15:49:12] - joe sixpack enters CC details [15:49:15] heh, then I seem to *have* a terrible font [15:49:20] - joe sixpack doesnt bat an eyelid at the urlbar [15:49:25] jez: have you considered the possibility that the person who hasn't thought it through is you? :P [15:49:44] *l* == *i*, hmm [15:49:44] they implemented the FF2 theme, which i said was awful [15:49:46] i still think that [15:49:57] this url greying strikes me with the same irritation the ff2 theme did [15:50:08] jez: i hate the FF2 theme too, but what does that have to do with making the URL bar not suck? [15:50:19] because it's a visual issue [15:50:22] look/feel [15:50:25] similar category [15:50:30] and it feels annoying [15:51:06] better annyoed than screwed over by a phisher [15:51:12] http://db48x.net/temp/Screenshot-100.png [15:51:27] db48x: 404 [15:51:28] the only decent argument i can see for it is that _advanced_ users might want _slightly_ easier identifying of the hostname [15:51:28] jez: why don't you just install the old theme then? [15:51:36] oh, I typoed [15:51:39] but surely you dont think newbs are going to read the urlbar [15:51:39] try it again [15:51:44] Enn [enn@moz-F84623BD.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [15:51:54] db48x: i install my Opaque theme. it's much better. [15:51:58] jez: this is mostly for users who don't already know how to parse hostnames in their head [15:52:07] jez: we're trying to make it possible for them to read the urlbar, so that as time passes users will be less effected by phishing [15:52:16] Jesse: they're a subset of users who WON'T parse them in their head [15:52:20] jez: we want to give them a fighting chance against phishing [15:52:26] wont make a difference. [15:52:32] not 1 whit. [15:52:55] not being cynical for the sake of it, just realistic [15:52:57] jez: exactly. that subset might even be most users. that's why we're trying to help them. [15:53:02] jez: sure, some won't, because there's always some small part of the population that has a terrible knee-jerk reaction to change [15:53:21] jez: rumor has it that TBL considers the hostname order to be one his biggest mistakes [15:53:25] im saying anyone who would be taken in by phishing will not be affected by this. [15:53:29] do you disagree with that statement? [15:53:33] yes, I do [15:53:35] db48x: Mac has to change font then [15:53:48] aw1: take a screenshot and show it off [15:53:57] sec [15:54:29] if you need some web space that can be arranged :) [15:55:02] db48x: what font is that? the 'o's are taller than the other letters. that looks weird. [15:55:30] URW Palladio [15:55:53] i dont think i'm gonna like that change no matter what, but i think i could live with it if it didnt ungrey on mouseover [15:56:02] if it only ungreyed when given focus [15:56:06] and yea, some of the letters get a little bit off because of hinting [15:56:10] it's that mouseover change that's irritating [15:56:23] jez: i like that idea [15:56:38] hrm, for me it doesn't change when I just hover over it [15:56:40] there has to be a pref for me to disable it though :-) [15:56:49] even that would only make it bearable in small doses [15:57:04] db48x: does firefox have focus? [15:57:14] Jesse: anyway, it's hard to notice the one pixel difference at 140 dpi :) [15:57:21] Jesse: yea [15:57:35] oh, wait [15:57:42] it only changes if I hover over the unused portion of the urlbar [15:57:54] if I put the cursor over the url first, it doesn't change [15:58:03] that's got to be a bug, one way or the other [15:58:07] i'm using the latest trunk nightly, and it changes if i hover over any part [15:58:22] stefanh [stefanh@moz-C0717DF0.static.s-h.siw.siwnet.net] has quit IRC: Client exited [15:58:36] hmm, mine is a few days old, lemme update [15:58:45] what's the pref to disable it? [15:59:26] chrisk [none@moz-5C4A133D.austin.res.rr.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [16:00:15] www.game-point.net/misc/greybar.png [16:00:20] i can barely read the path there [16:00:20] Standard8Away [mark@moz-BD7E5647.demon.co.uk] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [16:00:21] yuk. [16:00:27] dammit [16:00:36] I want to take you to a greybar [16:00:38] just to stop 2 people getting phished? [16:00:40] sigh [16:01:40] Standard8Away [mark@moz-BD7E5647.demon.co.uk] has joined #developers [16:01:40] jez: is it just the gray used with the background yellow that doesn't work for you? [16:01:40] yes, that is only one issue with it. i have done a lot of experimenting with different shades of gray and can;t fine one that it legible on all the laptops i have tried that is still diestinguishable form the darker taekxt under a lot of light conditions. [16:01:56] dietrich [dietrich@moz-3E81082E.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: dietrich [16:01:59] Jesse: i guess bolding or uling would be significantly better. [16:02:07] db48x: ah, I see, I had a smaller font size than the default [16:02:10] bolding, i think [16:02:17] but that would change the width of the hostname [16:02:23] gah, it's just horrid in any form :-) [16:02:25] with the default size, l != i in bold [16:02:56] changing the width is ok, IMO, as long as focusing doesn't unbold. [16:03:02] if you're gonna do it, change the hostname to red or something. but seriously, i'd recommend just backing it out. it's a bad idea. [16:03:11] the other problem with bold is that it makes chinese text illegible [16:03:20] brendan [brendaneic@moz-37758455.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [16:03:30] hey brendan, welcome to #flamewar [16:03:39] change the hostname to 1,0,0. that's slightly red. [16:03:47] thisismynick [none@moz-5C4A133D.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #developers [16:03:49] aw1: ah, you were hitting the resolution limit of your display :) [16:03:57] Jesse: what's up? [16:03:58] Jesse: hum, you'd think bold fonts used in such places would be designed with legibility above, uh, boldness [16:04:18] sp3000: making a small font bold can be hard [16:04:26] esp with something like chinese, i'd imagine [16:04:28] brendan: address bar flamewar, jez and wgianopoulos vs db48x and me, apparently [16:04:40] db48x: maybe I should simply buy a new laptop, would solve most of my problems ;) [16:04:48] who decided on the greying of the path? [16:04:51] policy? [16:05:01] aw1: sure :) I'd go for that :) [16:05:09] this is when the urlbar is not focused [16:05:29] hmm, bug 386896 [16:06:06] jez: you can read bug 366797 if you want [16:06:12] brendan: yea [16:06:38] Standard8Away [mark@moz-BD7E5647.demon.co.uk] has quit IRC: Quit: time for z [16:08:02] bug 386896 is about the gray-on-yellow being hard to read (and has various ideas for how to fix that). bug 388135 has a proposal that involves moving the path rather than graying it. [16:08:02] why do my stupid new ideas get rejected, but this guy's stupid new idea is checked in? [16:08:14] Jesse:I'm not really trying to start a flame war. in fact i think i could live with the current behavior fi the gray part were darker, but i bet there are other peole who would complain if it were as dark as i would make it becuase now ehy cant tell the difference as much anymore [16:08:38] a lot of this depends on if yo have a crt or an lcd screen and what kind of lcd screen and what the lighting conditions are. [16:08:51] Vampire- [aleks@3C88C065.1091C8D7.E16F0CF5.IP] has quit IRC: Quit: Moof [16:08:55] wgianopoulos: yeah, the flaming is mostly jez [16:08:58] the location bar is *meant* to be complex, ffs [16:09:18] it's like trying to make an engine into a fisher-price toy [16:09:27] if people cant understand it, use something designed to be more simple [16:09:28] I thinkt he dark level of the gray needs a ui to adjust it, but i also think it is kind of late in the game vs release schedule to be making up a new UI to do this. [16:09:32] like a phishing notification [16:09:56] wgianopoulos: it's not late in the game at all [16:10:06] wgianopoulos: we're just starting to land UI features [16:10:15] wgianopoulos: it would be late in the game for a gecko change, but not for a firefox change [16:10:15] what disturbs me is other stuff that is being planned for doing as part of this change like the talk of removing the first part of the host name if it is www. [16:10:42] wgianopoulos: i hadn't heard about removing 'www.' [16:10:50] > Make the domain name within the URL bold or otherwise highlighted to reduce [16:10:51] > the spoofing risks of complex URLs. [16:10:54] wgianopoulos: i don't think that's a good idea, fwiw [16:11:02] i thought i saw tha in the bug. i could be mistaken though [16:11:08] i want to stab in the face whoever wrote that [16:11:11] :-) [16:11:22] ajschult [ajschult@moz-5FA8B2A8.eng.buffalo.edu] has joined #developers [16:11:45] io know they were talking about removing the protocol, but that was only by changing the defaults on the already existing pref. [16:12:36] the protocol stays by default or i'll bust out mean brendan [16:12:41] so users are going to read the URLbar now and not get spoofed [16:12:48] no they're just so NOT [16:12:59] heh, i cant believe the stupidity of that idea [16:13:02] thisismynick [none@moz-5C4A133D.austin.res.rr.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [16:13:06] jez: i agree anti-phishing is not the same as more usable urlbar [16:13:30] brendan: 388135 [16:13:35] meanwhile knowledgable users have to put up with annoying ugliness [16:13:45] is there a pref to toggle it? [16:13:57] yes, last i checked [16:14:03] what is it? [16:15:17] well, I guess bold is out [16:15:33] I hadn't really thought about idn, particularly chinese [16:15:37] Jesse: Nevermind, i misread it. SOmone who objected to hiding http:// suggested only heiding the http:// if the hostname starts with www. [16:15:51] wgianopoulos: ahh [16:15:51] I must have missread the comment the first time [16:15:56] but I can live with the current setup [16:16:48] yay [16:16:56] so first you have the redundant stupidity of www. [16:17:05] then you compound it by messing with the url if it's there [16:17:27] wgianopoulos_ [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #developers [16:17:39] i know FF was meant to be simple, but there's a difference between simple and braindead [16:17:43] it should be reasonably functional [16:18:03] i wish you'd stop designing for the lowest common denominator [16:18:18] maybe the project should be split. seriously. newbies FF, and everyone else's FF [16:18:33] heh [16:18:39] jez: you can split it any time you want to [16:18:48] jez: go ahead [16:18:53] split by the officials... [16:18:55] wgianopoulos [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [16:18:55] wgianopoulos_ [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] is now known as wgianopoulos [16:19:04] Ryan: thanks, commented (and cc'ed Ka-Ping Yee) [16:19:08] everyone else's ff is SeaMonkey ;) [16:19:20] Actaully i wonder if that is not really that bad an idea. [16:19:23] all it takes is one person to say "ok, enough is enough, the current product sucks and I can do it better" [16:19:33] brendan: np :) [16:19:56] wgianopoulos [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] is now known as IRCMonkey14137 [16:20:41] I turned into a martian, Woah oh oh, I cant even recall my name [16:20:42] not a completely different firefox actually but a lot of this kind of issue seems to come form the fact that there is no UI to change the default behavior in an effort to keep the ui more simple [16:20:54] this is random events making songs pop up in my head day [16:21:03] er, s/martian/monkey/, doh [16:21:35] sp3000 slaps himself [16:22:13] if all of this stuff at least had preferences to customize it even if there were no ui for it, becuase we are trying to keep the ui uncluttered, then someone culd easily write an extension to make firefox more customizable for more advanced users without needing to go to about:config to do things [16:22:14] mcsmurf [chatzilla@moz-E401E23D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #developers [16:22:32] biesi [chb@moz-EAAF7674.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Verlassend [16:22:36] db48x: it takes that, and a quorum of developers, and significant server resources [16:22:39] benny`work [benny@moz-73EAE391.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #developers [16:22:39] IRCMonkey14137: there are prefs for most things [16:22:41] i only have 2 of the 3 :-) [16:22:42] faaborg [faaborg@moz-8ED18645.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: faaborg [16:23:11] jez: a quorum of one, perhaps [16:23:21] seriously, writing a xulrunner app is a cake walk [16:23:23] not really, or it will fall behind the main product [16:23:47] cake walk...every day a new word :) [16:23:58] firefox has a vast amount of resources and marketing behind it. im not naive enough to think that even a slightly better product could take it out [16:23:58] aw1 [Andreas_Wu@moz-5245B08D.infopact.nl] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [16:24:14] jez: the same was said of firefox back when it was split [16:24:24] and there was a whole lot more work to be done then [16:24:27] so i have to try and make people in FF see sense that greying the path is DUMB! :-P [16:24:36] hmm nickjserv seems to have changed my nick for me. [16:24:51] IRCMonkey14137 [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] is now known as wgianopoulos [16:24:55] IRCMonkey14137: that he did. [16:24:57] db48x: yeah, whatever. the moz suite was heavily criticised for being slow, and used by few people; mainly geeks. it didnt have a corporation behind it, nor public awareness, nor marketing [16:24:59] correct wgianopolous [16:25:04] was that the nick? ;) [16:25:13] Bill Gates might be able to launch a new firefox product, not anyone [16:25:18] ah not quite [16:25:26] wgianopoulos [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] is now known as wgianopoulos_ [16:25:32] SoC_Jusherot [SoC_Jusher@moz-E3FB353E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #developers [16:26:08] wgianopoulos_ [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] is now known as wgianopoulos__ [16:26:09] SoC_Jusherot [SoC_Jusher@moz-E3FB353E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit IRC: Quit: SoC_Jusherot [16:26:18] jez: ok, so if you start work on an alternative to firefox now, and then when 3.0 comes out it turns out that it sucks, then you'll have a leg up [16:26:49] it wont 'suck', it just wont be as good as it could be, in part because of this [16:26:59] it degrades it [16:27:03] wgianopoulos__ [gianopou@moz-C7DF794F.nys.biz.rr.com] is now known as wgianopoulos [16:27:11] and think about it, you won't even have to implement bookmarks, or the urlbar autocomplete, or any of a hundred other things that are provided by toolkit back end [16:27:20] ok that should keep nickserv happy for a while :-) [16:27:53] db48x: the thing that does not have a pref is the whole url fading of the non-domain part. [16:27:57] i wont have to implement a browser, i'd just take FF and mod it [16:28:09] but im not going to because it's too much of a PITA [16:28:26] wgianopoulos: brendan said there was a pref. even if there isn't a simple rule added to your userChrome.css will change the colors to anything you want [16:28:28] JibberJim [jim@moz-68D5ADB7.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [16:28:42] i can't find a pref in what landed [16:28:46] i'm pinging gavin about it [16:28:58] but userChrome.css can be used, yeah [16:29:01] browser.url.unfuckify = true [16:29:06] lot's of people are now disabling this by going into userChrome.css and setting the color for both cases to be the same, which leave firefox doing an awful lot of work to figure out which of hte 2 reasons will cuase the text to be black. [16:29:40] heh, I wouldn't say it's much work on firefox's part [16:29:42] how are you supposed to copy a url for another user? will it be created when the content of the location bar is selected? [16:30:13] a simple lookup in a table, a little loop to look for the right number of periods, and an extra dom node [16:30:17] firebot: jez [16:30:22] Jesse: Sorry, I've no idea what 'jez' might be. [16:30:22] Aqualon: try it -- focusing plain-ifies the location bar [16:30:34] thereis a pref called browser.urlbar.animateBlend which i thought was supposed to control this, but it does not appear to have any effect with todays build at least. [16:31:07] wgianopoulos: that pref name doesn't sound right [16:31:22] maybe it's for controlling an animation of the color change [16:31:29] this thing should be Off by default [16:31:38] Aqualon is a die-hard SeaMonkey user ;) [16:31:41] dolske [dolske@moz-334F2010.mountainview.mozilla.com] has joined #developers [16:31:48] brendan: I don't have a nightly here, was just wondering about it [16:32:06] hmm, even after I update, hovering over the url doesn't change the styling [16:32:18] hovering over the empty part of the urlbar does though [16:32:28] well anyway if the intent is that there will be a pref that is really good enough for me. if htere could be a safe browsing panel added to prefernces to control some of these prefs that swould be even better, but i can understand the reasoning behind not having it. [16:32:30] Jesse: an annoying tool [16:32:30] ajschult [ajschult@moz-5FA8B2A8.eng.buffalo.edu] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer [16:32:42] mcsmurf eyes firebot [16:32:43] :D [16:32:50] wgianopoulos: sounds like a bug (animateBlend not working) -- file it? [16:32:51] wgianopoulos: safe browsing. heh. [16:32:52] firebot: i was hoping for a bugmail address, actually [16:32:57] Jesse: Sorry, I've no idea what 'i was hoping for a bugmail address, actually' might be. [16:33:04] thus is a funky bug [16:33:18] wgianopoulos: i know. we should implement a "dodgy site detector", just in case users cant make out bad English and stuff. [16:33:20] db48x wallops firebot [16:33:34] ajschult [ajschult@moz-5FA8B2A8.eng.buffalo.edu] has joined #developers [16:34:00] I understand full well why you are trying to do this and i actually think this is a good idea. I spend way too much time having to fix a couple of peoples PCs I know who seem to get infected by every virus that comes out becuase they fall for every obviously fake e-mail. So far they have not done anything stupid and sent anyone personal info or money, but they keep folloing links to... [16:34:01] ...things that infect thier pc. [16:34:46] "hmm, this looks like a great offer from my bank and all i need to do is enter my account details. goody... oh wait, i'll just look in the URLbar. before, it wouldn've been incomprehensible to me, but with this new un-greyed hostname, i can see it's really not my bank! thanks firefox. i'll carefully avoid this phisher from now on." [16:36:53] that's seriously the idea, is it. [16:37:29] yep [16:38:00] think about it this way [16:38:16] I am sure for the people I was taoking about who get a virus every month it probably won;t help them at all. they seem to go by the logo on the page. [16:38:19] when my Grandmother calls me up next time, I'll be able to show here the hostname, and she'll always be able to find it [16:38:35] s/here/her/ [16:39:11] that, to me, makes it worth any number of cat calls from the gallery [16:39:19] yeah, fine, but if you're landing something that some people clearly don't like, the first thing in your head should be, "what shall we call the pref to turn this OFF?" [16:39:30] they landed this and it's not disableable! [16:39:50] irritating [16:39:59] luckily the good old virus that just erases the whole HDD and destroys the BIOS isn't that common anymore these days.. ;) [16:40:00] im surprised it got sr+ [16:40:12] these days the virii rather provide botnets and such [16:40:19] jez: why don't you whip up a patch to fix that problem real quick, brendan and mcsmurf can review, and I'll check it in for you :) [16:40:29] hah :) [16:40:34] mcsmurf: :) [16:40:53] There is a ptach currently waiting review on bug 388135 that would unconditionally hide the https:// in the URLbar. This should be a non-starter idea. SO everyone who has a secure server that says all over their site to make sure you see the https:// in the urlbar is going ot have to change that part of thier site I guess. [16:41:21] ctalbert [clint@moz-94EBE039.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers [16:41:29] db48x: is that a joke or not? [16:41:40] ctalbert [clint@moz-94EBE039.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: ctalbert [16:41:56] we're so serious dude [16:42:15] trio infernale [16:42:21] wgianopoulos: yeah, it's a bad idea (you're forgetting the lock and the gold color, but it's still a terrible idea) [16:42:27] jez: not a joke at all [16:42:28] wgianopoulos: yeah, and it's r?'d to gavin sharp who approved the greying path idea [16:42:31] don't worry, the scheme is not going away [16:42:34] you know, these are the kind of discussions that make me really glad that I can just stick with SeaMonkey... [16:42:58] Sander: bully for you [16:43:02] :) [16:43:04] Sander: what makes you sure that SeaMonkey doesn't impl that, too? [16:43:05] ;-) [16:43:06] jez: you must be new here [16:43:19] ? [16:43:35] sayrer [chatzilla@moz-36071B30.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #developers [16:43:54] mcsmurf: I know where KaiRo lives. [16:44:17] hm you're somewhat close, indeed ;) [16:44:32] (okay, so not beyond country-level, but Germany can't be that big, really.) ;P [16:44:47] ha ha :P [16:44:52] wrong country [16:44:54] ;) [16:45:00] you can look forever searching him in Germany ;) [16:45:04] oh yeah, austria [16:45:06] but you can visit me if you want [16:45:17] even better, that is veritably tiny! [16:45:27] austria isn't part of germany any more [16:45:36] I'm right between the Netherlands and Austria [16:45:39] ... :D [16:46:07] i still don't see what all the fuss is about w.r.t. the new location bar. I find it's pretty easy to get used to and if it helps mitigate domain spoofing, I don't see what the harm is [16:46:27] Jesse wonders what brendan's "you must be new here" comment referred to [16:46:35] RyanVM: knee jerk reaction to any change on the part of the vocal minority [16:46:37] RyanVM: it used to be that way for x years and it was always like that etc. [16:46:38] 8-) [16:46:50] RyanVM: try make similar changes to linux users' commandlines [16:46:53] i do agree, however, that on secure sites, grey on yellow is hard to read [16:46:59] RyanVM: it is not easy to get used to [16:47:05] (I really hate if someone argues like that!) [16:47:06] it is frigging annoying. [16:47:14] maybe the yellow should be made more subtle? :P [16:47:16] Neil_ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #developers [16:47:17] i like the idea of bold for the domain and the rest in black instead [16:47:30] Build 'MacOSX Darwin 8.10.1 cb-xserve01 Depend Cm1.0-M1.8.0' has dropped from the 'Camino' tinderbox. [16:47:30] NeilZZZ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [16:47:30] Neil_ [neil@moz-228E8524.lutn.cable.ntl.com] is now known as NeilZZZ [16:47:32] Jesse: getting review for one patch doesn't guarantee review for another; patches welcome; etc. [16:47:32] or the yellow could even go away [16:47:47] RyanVM: so did I but, that's not a good choice for some scripts, like chinese [16:47:55] dropping yellow is always a good idea [16:47:57] db48x: ah, I see [16:48:03] Jesse: the SSL yellow? [16:48:05] the fact that you're on an https site is much less interesting than knowing which site you're on [16:48:06] mcsmurf: yeah [16:48:09] db48x moves the comma around a bit to find a better fit [16:48:13] it is a perf regression with no success criteria [16:48:21] and the yellow confuses users coming from IE, where yellow is bad (iirc) [16:48:29] Jesse: except when you're using unsecure wifi [16:48:31] Jesse: ok but then we please need to stick with one version for a few years even [16:48:34] but yeah, grey on pale yellow is rather low-contrast. I pity anybody who has vision difficulties [16:48:37] not change with every major version [16:48:45] i'll submit a patch to do 2 things: [16:48:46] I think it would be impossible to answer the question "how will we know this failed? [16:48:47] " [16:48:54] 1) the domain becomes red instead of the rest becoming grey [16:48:59] 2) there's a pref to disable it [16:49:03] that makes it more bearable [16:49:08] jez: can't, because some users are colorblind [16:49:14] and red on ssl yellow would be terrible [16:49:16] so? [16:49:36] jez: Did you just ignore the conversation we were having about the vision-impaired? [16:49:39] if they're colourblind, the ssl yellow wont help them [16:49:42] jez: some users are blind and the coloring doesn't help them. that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. [16:49:54] if they're blind, ff wont help them [16:49:55] err, that was for db48x [16:49:57] we should do things that actually hep [16:49:57] yellow colorblindness? [16:50:01] mcsmurf wonders ;) [16:50:06] so, using colors changes as a ui indication is a no-no. [16:50:27] s/using/relying on/ [16:50:29] db48x: erm, that's stupid [16:50:36] now we have to all of this because we'll get spitballs thrown at us if we don't [16:50:39] oh well [16:50:42] especially as this is utterly unnecessary [16:50:50] it doesnt matter if 1 or 2 people cant see it [16:51:00] and i literally mean 1 or 2 [16:51:03] db48x: using color is better than nothing [16:51:38] Jesse, why do you say that? [16:51:43] Jesse: but it's worse than using a saturation change, like we're using now [16:52:06] db48x: ok [16:52:14] besides, don't the red-green coloblind see both red and green as a sort of beige? [16:52:32] beige on ssl yellow seems like a worse combination than grey on ssl yellow, or red on ssl yellow for the non-colorblind [16:53:17] hum, this is actually quite a simple fix [16:53:20] modifying browser.css [16:53:26] jez: yep [16:54:01] adding a pref isn't any more difficult [16:54:56] just don't put them in the same patch [16:55:22] gtg [16:55:37] firebot: M7? [16:55:42] mcsmurf: Sorry, I've no idea what 'M7' might be. [16:56:24] db48x: why not? [16:56:32] Simon [Simon@moz-CB07BC25.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit IRC: Quit: Simon [16:56:36] db48x: 'improvements for the urlbar greying patch' [16:56:56] Jesse [jruderman@moz-F4A8569E.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Quit: Jesse [16:56:56] ...sounds like a nice way to get an r- if the reviewers don't like one part of the patch... [16:57:30] they should like it [16:57:30] :-) [16:57:38] yea, if you split it you have a better chance of getting part of it in [16:57:41] paul [paul@moz-DB556DEE.org] has quit IRC: Quit: leaving [16:57:42] you're a bit cocky, aren't you [16:57:50] and of course we have all those non-color OLPC PCs coming along. [16:58:14] sayrer can't wait for the "we taken too many patches on top of it" argument [16:58:23] RyanVM: i know what UI changes seem totally wrong from an objective POV, certainly [16:58:32] i've made an objective argument as to why this is a bad idea [16:58:58] it is impossible to reason about, because the goal of the location bar is not clear [16:59:05] paul [paul@moz-DB556DEE.org] has joined #developers [16:59:13] to clearly display the URL of the displayed resource] [16:59:46] the URL is quite clearly display in Firefox 2 [16:59:55] yep. [17:00:17] so we are trying emphasizing the domain name in order to ______________ [17:00:33] no, you're making the rest harder to read [17:00:35] RyanVM [RyanVM@moz-55CC9E87.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] is now known as RyanVM|Away [17:00:47] sayrer: make it more difficult for a phishing attemp to suceede [17:00:49] to help users that won't be helped by this. [17:01:12] you're colour-coding an engine for someone who never lifts up the bonnet [17:01:33] sayrer: so that http://paypal.com/whatever is clearly distinguised from http://www.paypal.com.evil.com/wahtever [17:01:33] sayrer: i agree [17:01:52] it already is [17:02:00] by .evil.com [17:02:16] users are too dumb for this... [17:02:24] db48x, but there are many studies showing users pay no attention to the chrome, and don't understand the provenance of its icons vs. content? [17:02:26] jez: you might be able to clearly distinguish it, but if everyone could, phishing wouldn't be a problem, [17:02:33] it already is, by the yellow address bar and lock icon [17:02:34] right? [17:02:43] ajschult: and it will be just as much of a problem with the new urlbar [17:02:50] paul [paul@moz-DB556DEE.org] has quit IRC: Quit: leaving [17:02:52] ajschult: i guarantee that [17:02:55] 100% [17:03:19] sayrer: right but the reason they don't pay attention to the chrome is because they don't understand it [17:03:19] jez: ok, but you should pick a rationale and stick to it [17:03:33] paul [paul@moz-DB556DEE.org] has joined #developers [17:04:05] db48x, I don't think that has been established [17:04:07] ajschult: i did. the new urlbar makes the rest non-hostname part harder to read, for users that won't be helped by it. [17:04:11] by making the important pieces of information stand out, we can improve the chances that a phishing attack will be discovered before it's too late [17:04:16] sayrer: it worked for the lock icon [17:04:23] it did? [17:04:26] sure [17:04:37] do we have data on that? [17:04:44] jez: no. first you asserted that db48x's URLs were easy to distinguish and then you asserted that the URL bar changes wouldn't help [17:04:53] db48x: a lock is simple. it's from a paradigm that people already know; lock is safe. this is keeping the same content as there was before [17:04:55] sayrer: I don't know [17:05:01] users are not going to realise the significance [17:05:04] then we don't know it worked [17:05:09] popcorn! get your popcorn here!! [17:05:11] unless they're dragged through a boring tutorial [17:05:43] ajschult: are the two points incompatible?: [17:05:58] they're very easy to distinguish, if you know how to read a URL [17:06:05] otherwise, they're not under any circumstance [17:06:05] jez: in the second case, you're accepting that they are not easy [17:06:07] jez: there will be a first run tutorial explaining the changes in a simple 5-part series of popups. [17:06:24] dolske: umm... what? [17:06:31] jez: there's either a need to improve things, or there's not. you can't argue both points [17:06:32] sayrer: I don't think there were any studies of user behavior prior to the introduction of the lock icon [17:06:33] you're actually popping stuff up? [17:06:49] heh, that'll be popular and successful. [17:07:13] jez: there's a quiz at the end too. we don't want stupid people using the browser. [17:07:32] ajschult: there isn't, and that isn't incompatible with my point that URL's are easy to read if you know how to read them. [17:07:34] db48x, well, how about this: safari's https UI is incredibly subtle [17:07:36] rofl [17:07:43] dolske: ah, a good idea for once! :-) [17:07:57] db48x, do you think data will show that Safari users are more vulnerable to phishing? [17:08:01] so, already one user lost! [17:09:04] sayrer: no, because phishers rarely bother to use ssl certs. [17:09:17] people only ever talk about the lock icon in the context of making a purchase [17:09:37] ok, so how were you claiming the lock icon succeeded? [17:09:44] so, dare I interrupt with a real question... if I'm chrome [JS] and have a reference to some content DOM node, how can I figure out which chrome window / it's in? [17:09:45] which is unfortunate, because people never look for it in similar non-retail situations [17:10:02] I don't see any obvious ways to get from content to chrome. :( [17:10:28] dolske: foo.ownerDocument [17:10:37] db48x: it's ok, because the check out the hostname carefully [17:10:42] *they [17:10:52] db48x: but that's the content document for foo, no? [17:11:00] oh, you wanted the window [17:11:50] yeah. end goal is the for the content document. [17:12:21] let's see, can you ask the tab browser to map a dom window to a browser? [17:12:23] difficulty: I'm a component. [17:12:43] doesn't FUEL have something for that? [17:12:52] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [17:13:00] there is a tedious way to do it, but I think it's wrapped up there [17:13:08] yea, you can [17:13:10] http://mxr-test.landfill.bugzilla.org/mozilla/source/toolkit/content/widgets/tabbrowser.xml#225 [17:13:11] db48x: yeah, the brute force is to iterate over every window, and look for a browser matching the content doc. [17:13:18] for each open window, get the tabbrowser [17:13:22] I was hoping for something more direct. [17:13:28] tom_5200 [tom@EEECAF8A.EEE7E9A4.5A1D8483.IP] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [17:13:38] then do tb.getBrowserForDocument(foo.contentDocument) [17:14:24] that's fairly direct [17:15:10] Well, direct as in O(1)... :-) [17:15:22] ah, fuel just has activeWindow [17:15:37] no, there's no global mapping between documents and nodes [17:16:04] the best you can do is ask each individual tab browser element [17:16:38] ehh, that sucks. I'm switching to Opera! :-) [17:16:41] lol [17:17:20] haha [17:17:37] I totally tried after the location bar drove me up a wall [17:17:58] Opera went into an infinite sidebar expand/collapse [17:18:07] triggered by YouTube [17:18:18] O_o [17:19:21] gavin_ [gavin@moz-9175EA73.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #developers [17:21:03] stefanh [stefanh@moz-C0717DF0.static.s-h.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #developers [17:21:42] benny`work [benny@moz-73EAE391.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit IRC: Quit: unset($this); [17:29:46] Firefox: 'WINNT 5.2 qm-win2k3-01 dep unit test' has changed state from Success to Burning. [17:31:46] SeaMonkey: 'WINNT 5.2 sea-win32-tbox Depend Nightly' has changed state from Success to Test Failed. [17:34:17] JasnaPaka [Pavel@moz-9D55794A.karneval.cz] has joined #developers [17:34:22] jiha [jiha@moz-2BE91742.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit IRC: Ping timeout [17:36:23] dolske, you have recent logs of this channel? [17:36:40] only whatever's in my scrollback. [17:36:56] I have logs [17:37:04] what date range do you need? [17:37:15] "they're big they're h